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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1292
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Posted - 2016.03.10 10:02:50 -
[1] - Quote
These seem like some pretty terrible changes.
Could we have some kind of justification for them, because it's difficult to give constructive feedback to changes like these when it's unclear what the designer was attempting to achieve with them. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1306
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Posted - 2016.03.17 09:51:20 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Market: markets currently have two taxes, transaction's tax, applied for sold items, and broker's fee for non immediate orders, which are set at 1.5% and 1% respectively. To create an environment more competitive for Citadels, we plan on increasing the transaction tax to 2.5% and the broker's fee to 5-6%. Players trading in citadels will still receive the transaction tax, but the broker's fee will be at the complete discretion of the owner. To avoid confusion for the owner, the broker relations skill will not affect player set broker's fee in Citadels. A market will not grow in a Citadel until that Citadel has a population. A population will not be drawn to a Citadel by a minor discount in a fee that most players don't even care about.
Once the Citadel has a population, it doesn't matter what the broker fee is. There will be a population to trade with and a market will grow as a result. It will not matter that the price isn't competitive with Jita, because Jita is far away and convenience is more important. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1322
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Posted - 2016.03.17 15:59:58 -
[3] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:On the other hand...it might. You are correct that the typical player looking to fit out a ship may not care between a broker's fee of 1% vs. 3.5% or whatever. But a guy buying stuff to fit out 300 ships might. If the cost of the ships is say 150 million now it is 112.5 million ISK savings. So this theoretical guy trying to buy stuff for 300 ships is going to do what? Put up a buy order in a Citadel somewhere and wait patiently for it to fill?
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1322
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Posted - 2016.03.17 16:28:12 -
[4] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:On the other hand...it might. You are correct that the typical player looking to fit out a ship may not care between a broker's fee of 1% vs. 3.5% or whatever. But a guy buying stuff to fit out 300 ships might. If the cost of the ships is say 150 million now it is 112.5 million ISK savings. So this theoretical guy trying to buy stuff for 300 ships is going to do what? Put up a buy order in a Citadel somewhere and wait patiently for it to fill? That could be the way he goes if he has the time. And is someone going to move these items to that Citadel somewhere and fill his buy order without there being something in it for them?
Teckos Pech wrote:Or depending on the location a bulk trader might move to a citadel. A bulk trader that seeds new markets?
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1322
|
Posted - 2016.03.17 19:18:52 -
[5] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:If I see a buy order in a station at a good price and I can sell a large portion or all of my stock there...yeah. And by a "good price" you mean less than NPC hub prices? Because, as you said, the buyer is doing this to save a few isk. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1322
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Posted - 2016.03.18 02:18:08 -
[6] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:If I see a buy order in a station at a good price and I can sell a large portion or all of my stock there...yeah. And by a "good price" you mean less than NPC hub prices? Because, as you said, the buyer is doing this to save a few isk. No. So is the buyer offering more than NPC hub prices or is he matching the NPC hub price?
Lucas Kell wrote:I do have a fair amount of experience growing a market out in solitude from a basically empty station, and it's surprising how quickly even in a fairly empty section of space like that the orders help push each other and the market emerges. What were your criteria for selecting the station?
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1322
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Posted - 2016.03.18 04:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:If I see a buy order in a station at a good price and I can sell a large portion or all of my stock there...yeah. And by a "good price" you mean less than NPC hub prices? Because, as you said, the buyer is doing this to save a few isk. No. So is the buyer offering more than NPC hub prices or is he matching the NPC hub price? Is this infeasible or unwise? You haven't given me enough data for me to answer that.
But a hypothetical from a person that is not experienced with trade is more likely to resemble a real players "first attempt" at something. That's informative, but generally players go on to refine their approach.
My perspective is that of a veteran trader. I would expect a large buy order at a non-competitive price that is placed in a station with no pre-existing traffic to take a long time to fill. I expect that your hypothetical person would also discover this. I wonder what he would do next?
Given that broker fees are the incentive for a person to install and maintain a market service module, it's likely they are going to set it to a non-zero value. We can probably assume that total game-wide broker fees are going to go up substantially. The impact of that on a players order placing behavior is going to be interesting. I'd expect it to discourage the placement of orders that don't fill. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1322
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Posted - 2016.03.18 04:12:10 -
[8] - Quote
I'd like to know how ranged buy orders are going to behave.
Because if you set a broker fee of zero at your Citadel and place ranged buy orders from it, you'll be picking up stock from NPC stations while paying your player-set zero broker fee for the order.
Also if you place a ranged buy order in hi-sec or low-sec now, you know you can at least access all the goods you buy. That's not the case if Citadels trigger ranged buy orders. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1322
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Posted - 2016.03.18 04:22:57 -
[9] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Oh, and I doubt people will move until they unwind their existing positions. My guess is the transaction tax and the broker's fee will not be retroactive--i.e. you are not going to have to pay it for existing orders. I'd like to see that confirmed.
I certainly wouldn't look kindly on a market purge or a retroactive tax bill on patch day.
I'd expect transaction tax to be retro-active because it's charged at sale and I doubt CCP is going to go to the effort of flagging all the pre-patch orders for a tax exemption. So that would mean that some pre-existing orders that were profitable will become unprofitable at the point of patching.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1323
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Posted - 2016.03.18 04:37:44 -
[10] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:I'd like to know how ranged buy orders are going to behave.
Because if you set a broker fee of zero at your Citadel and place ranged buy orders from it, you'll be picking up stock from NPC stations while paying your player-set zero broker fee for the order.
Also if you place a ranged buy order in hi-sec or low-sec now, you know you can at least access all the goods you buy. That's not the case if Citadels trigger ranged buy orders. MVP of the last 30 pages, right here. If CCP thinks it's the problem, I guess the simple and lazy way would be to restrict citadels to station only buy orders. I rather expect they will just leave it alone though, similar to the current system where you can get low broker fee's across a whole region by listing from a single station. So if you are in a 0% broker fee Citadel 1 jump from Jita placing 1 jump ranged buy orders you can circumvent the broker fees while continuing to trade at your preferred NPC venue?
Erm... ok. I can afford a L+ Citadel to facilitate my Jita trading, but what about those that cant? |
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1327
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Posted - 2016.03.18 05:04:23 -
[11] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Probably. But you would have to pay the NPC broker fee if you wanted to resell it in the station, or pick it up and haul it to your own station to sell. Seems rather inconvenient to do, if the alternative is buying and selling from the same Citadel. In the case I'm describing, you would place your buy orders in the Citadel and place your sell orders at Jita 4-4. The majority of your stock would land directly in Jita 4-4 and what little doesn't can be moved by a combination of asset safety and courier contracts.
If you choose Niyabainen for the sake of argument, your 1 jump range will only include Jita, New Caldari and Perimeter.
It's not that inconvenient for a 5% advantage over anyone who doesn't do the same. I'm not sure how useful comparing that to buying and selling in the same Citadel is, because Jita population isn't something that you can just summon to the doorstep of your citadel on a whim. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1327
|
Posted - 2016.03.18 05:08:18 -
[12] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Oh, and I doubt people will move until they unwind their existing positions. My guess is the transaction tax and the broker's fee will not be retroactive--i.e. you are not going to have to pay it for existing orders. I'd like to see that confirmed. I certainly wouldn't look kindly on a market purge or a retroactive tax bill on patch day. I'd expect transaction tax to be retro-active because it's charged at sale and I doubt CCP is going to go to the effort of flagging all the pre-patch orders for a tax exemption. So that would mean that some pre-existing orders that were profitable will become unprofitable at the point of patching. For a trader with accounting V, Sales tax is only going from .75% to 1%. Probably not a ton of people trading high volume high value items on an end margin of less than .25% Seriously doubt CCP will do anything special for those few cases. I don't expect CCP to deal with those cases, but it's something they might want to spell out so that people don't get nasty surprises.
I expect collateral damage, but because it's needed for change, not because CCP had no idea it would happen or didn't give people the heads up that would have allowed it to be avoided. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1327
|
Posted - 2016.03.18 08:45:10 -
[13] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:I do have a fair amount of experience growing a market out in solitude from a basically empty station, and it's surprising how quickly even in a fairly empty section of space like that the orders help push each other and the market emerges. What were your criteria for selecting the station? It had to be near empty of player orders, relatively central and have manufacture facilities. Those look like perfectly sensible criteria.
Why were broker fees not a criteria in your selection?
Lucas Kell wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:I'd like to know how ranged buy orders are going to behave.
Because if you set a broker fee of zero at your Citadel and place ranged buy orders from it, you'll be picking up stock from NPC stations while paying your player-set zero broker fee for the order. That's always been the case, brokers fee is paid from whatever station you set the order at at the rate based on your standings at that station. Indeed. It's something I've depended on for some of my trading strategies. But in the past the gap between the haves and the have-nots wasn't nearly as big as is proposed, I'm wondering how that will impact who can access various types of trading gameplay. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1327
|
Posted - 2016.03.18 09:12:32 -
[14] - Quote
Rob Kaichin wrote:Where is this idea coming from that the buy orders filed in the Citadel can buy items in other stations? The initial announcement, as I understand it, was that buy orders within Citadels are only available (to sell to) within the Citadels themselves, as with the sell orders and the like. Have you got a quote from CCP on that? Because I think this is one of many areas where the details are somewhat thin on the ground.
I'd also want to know what happens when the Citadel you have your orders hosted in is un-anchored, destroyed or has it's market service removed. Can I put up a Citadel, host up all my orders and then un-anchor my Citadel with the orders still persisting or will the orders get cancelled? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1327
|
Posted - 2016.03.18 09:31:28 -
[15] - Quote
Rob Kaichin wrote:The orders are cancelled: market orders count as coming from your personal hanger, so they're included in the asset safety mechanics.
As for a quote, I thought it was in this thread, but it isn't. So a station owner can take your broker fees, purge your orders and keep the ISK?
What about corp orders that usually go to deliveries instead of your personal hanger?
Rob Kaichin wrote:The essential idea was that there were problems implementing market visibility viz. the availability of docking rights. Therefore (for the moment), Citadels weren't able to buy outside themselves, nor sell. So is this a temporary thing, like the lack of contracts support, or a permanent thing? |
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